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Self-Care Strategies for Educators with Tina H. Boogren, PhD (Ep 54)

/ Jason Sholl

Tina H. Boogren, PhD, is a fierce advocate for educators and an award-winning educator, best-selling author, and highly sought-after speaker. Tina has proudly served as a classroom teacher, mentor, instructional coach, and building-level leader and has presented for audiences all over the world. Dr. Boogren is deeply committed to supporting educators so that they can support their students. She conducts highly requested and inspiring keynotes, workshops, and virtual webinars that focus on quality instruction, coaching, mentoring, and professional wellness and she hosts a weekly podcast, Self-Care for Educators with Dr. Tina H. Boogren.

Dr. Boogren was a 2007 finalist for Colorado Teacher of the Year and was a recipient of her school district’s Outstanding Teacher Award eight years in a row, from 2002 to 2009. She is the author of numerous books, including In the First Few Years: Reflections of a Beginning Teacher, Supporting Beginning Teachers, The Beginning Teacher’s Field Guide: Embarking on Your First Years, 180 Days of Self-Care for Busy Educators, and Take Time for You: Self-Care Action Plans for Educators, which was the Independent Publisher’s Gold Award winner in the Education category. She a co-author of Strategies to Motivate and Inspire Students along with Robert Marzano, Darrell Scott, and Ming Lee Newcomb, and is a contributing author to Richard Kellough’s Middle School Teaching: A Guide to Methods and Resources and Robert J. Marzano’s Becoming a Reflective Teacher. Dr. Boogren holds a bachelor’s degree from the University of Iowa, a master’s degree with an administrative endorsement from the University of Colorado Denver, and a doctorate from the University of Denver in educational administration and policy studies. You can follow her on Twitter @THBoogren or visit her Facebook page at facebook.com/selfcareforeducators.

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Nathan Lang-Raad: Welcome to the Deeper Learning with WeVideo podcast. I'm your host, Nathan Lang-Raad. Today's guest, we have Dr. Tina H. Boogren. Tina is a fierce advocate for educators, particularly for their wellbeing. She's the author of numerous books centered around her passion areas of quality instruction, coaching and mentoring, and wellness, and hosts a weekly podcast, Self-Care for Educators with Tina Boogren. She lives in Denver, Colorado. I hope you enjoy the show.

Nathan Lang-Raad: Tina, it's so great to have you on the podcast. Thanks for being on today.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: Oh, I am so honored. Thank you, my pleasure.

Nathan Lang-Raad: Oh my goodness, you and I have been chatting it up before we pressed the record button and I have just heard so much about you. It's such an honor to finally be connected with you. I feel like we've become fast friends just in our little pre-podcast conference here.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: I agree. I absolutely. Oh my gosh, yes. I wish we were in the same place. We could like sit down with coffee and like continue this for hours.

Nathan Lang-Raad: Oh my goodness. As we're recording this we're still in pandemic times and you and I were just talking about this new world we're in doing all these virtual coaching sessions and the schools and now with this podcast. I do feel like our videos are going right now, so at least I can see in your office. It'll have to do for now until we're past this and we can have coffee in real life one day.

Nathan Lang-Raad: The very first time I heard about you, Tina, I was working with, before you press a record button, I was working with a district and they were talking about the great Dr. Tina Boogren. They were telling me all about you and, and your strategies for SEL and self care.

Nathan Lang-Raad: I had to learn more about you and I did. I'm just so fascinated about your work and just how you got into the Self-Care for Educators. I'd love to start our conversation out by asking you, how did you get into this work of Self-Care for Educators?

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: Oh, it's one of those convoluted questions that now looking back in hindsight, I can connect the lines and the dots between all of the pieces. At the time, it wasn't so clear. It all started back, I had the great opportunity to co-author the book Motivating and Inspiring Students with Dr. Marzano, Darrell Scott, and Ming Lee Newcomb.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: What we did for that book is we utilize Maslow's hierarchy of needs and this was our approach to social, emotional learning for students, where we identified what the research tells us super specific strategies that we can attach to each level of Maslow for students. The piece that I brought to it was as the practitioner.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: Thinking about what does this actually look like in the classroom? As we were writing that book, I kept getting hung up on we're asking teachers to do more, more, and more and more and more. We have to make sure that the students are fed and that they're getting a good night's sleep and all of these pieces.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: It just felt like, "Oh my gosh, it's so much." At the time, I was working as a consultant and traveling all over and working with teachers on a daily basis and recognizing the level of burnout and exhaustion, and stress. I almost carried this guilt of like, "How can I ask them to do even more?" Not that they weren't already doing it, but to even add more to their plate.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: It was an a-ha moment of... As I read the strategies and all the recommendations, it was like holding a mirror up to myself, because at that point I was traveling like a crazy person. I was not taking care of myself. I was just about burned out. I thought, "Oh, not only do I feel the notion of asking teachers to do this for students, how can I ask teachers to do this if I'm not doing this myself?"

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: I just had one of those lightning bolt moments of something has to give. I was drowning. I was just not taking care of myself. I was about 25 pounds overweight. I wasn't sleeping. I was coming home as Brené Brown talks about as a hospital patient. My husband would just, "I just needed to go to bed and no one to be around me for a while."

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: Then turn around the next day and fly out again. It was was brutal. As I was reading the strategies, I thought, "Well, I should probably try these myself." I went on this journey to kind of change my life. I did the things. I drank the stupid water and I went to bed. I packed my gym clothes again.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: Did the things that we all know, I mean, none of it is new, it's just those reminders and then doing it ourselves. I started to feel so much better. As that occurs, we all know that feeling of when you start to feel better, people are like, "Wait, I noticed a difference. What's going on? What are you doing?"

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: I started sharing some of these tips and tricks and ideas. I approached my own self-care through the Maslow's hierarchy and as I worked on solidifying each of the levels, I then started to build this plan of how I did this myself. I invited some teachers, some friends of mine that are also educators. Like, "Here's what I tried. Let's try these strategies."

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: We worked on what does this look like from our lens of educators and it worked. All these people just started making these incredible changes. None of it was to a sacrifice of their students. The a-ha moment that seems so obvious now, but at the time was, "Oh, wait, when we take care of ourselves, we actually take better care of our students."

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: Then it just spiraled from there. It's been just this incredible journey, which started before COVID. The interesting part was I think the work kind of blew up during COVID because of that recognition finally of, "Oh, wow, this is too much. What we're asking our educators to do is too much. We've got to take care of ourselves."

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: In that deep way of self-care, not that I don't talk about self care in terms of bubble bath and chocolate and wine tasting, which I am here for all of that, for sure. Sign me up, but that is not the self-care. What I always say is these two different types of self-care that is the good self-care, which there is a place for that, for sure. That's not the self care that helps us go to work tomorrow and be a better educator.

Nathan Lang-Raad: That's interesting. I'm going to ask you about that because that is where many of us go to like, "Yes, Dr. Boogren we know that we need to have time for ourselves. We know we need to exercise and drink water. We know this." It's interesting, even though we say we know it, it's fascinating to see how many of us don't actually abide by those things.

Nathan Lang-Raad: Until we get to a place where what you just described where you're like, "I have to change something." Especially for I think most educators are similar to how I see my days, "I've got to get this done. I got to get that done. I can't sit still. I'm always going, going, going, going, going." I feel like doing and going is how many of us measure our success by how much we can get done, which I feel is antithetical to the self-care.

Nathan Lang-Raad: I also feel like self-care could be a foundation for doing those things better. I think I just thrown a lot at you just now. I'd love to hear your thoughts about what are some of those self-care strategies that got to go beyond the bubble bath and the relaxed time, and can help us do that work better?

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: There's so much there. I agree with all of it, yes. It's the notion. Oftentimes, it's funny. I think there's a disappointment sometimes when people hear me talk about self-care, because they'll hear self-care and they're like, "Yes, Tina is going to tell me to take the bubble bath and do the things." Then they listened to me and they're like, oh.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: I'll expand a little bit on what I say these two different types of self-care. There's the feel good self-care, which there is absolutely a place for that. We need that desperately that's the whatever in each individual would describe that their own way, whatever that just no guilt leaning into that feel good self-care.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: Then the care that really, that I think that makes the actual difference, sometimes doesn't feel like self-care. It's making the hard choice of here's an example that I like to give. I've recently discovered I'm late to the party, but I've recently discovered Schitt's Creek, the fabulous TV show. [crosstalk 00:09:12] watch Schitt's Creek on Netflix in the name of self-care, which that is true.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: I can watch episode after episode and I could say, Oh, this is self-care and it is for a minute, but if I do that every single night, that doesn't actually help me get up and go to work the next morning. The self-care that I'm advocating for is the self care that says, "Yes, watch the episode of Schitt's Creek." Then when it's time to go to bed, put yourself to bed.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: I talk about that professional wellness is oftentimes in the choices, those hard choices. Would I rather drink coffee all day long? Yes. The choices though, I should drink some water sometimes, too. It's also in being able to slow down and take the deep breath. What might our colleague and friend would call Tim Kanal would call that quietude, finding those quiet moments for reflection, which I love.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: Then thinking all the way up Maslow's so diet, sleep and exercise at level one. Level two is safety and safety can be anything we can do to combat worry or anxiety. Taking deep breaths, that's our meditation. That's like having a dance party to music, creating our own playlist, moving up to level three is belonging, that is the focus on relationships, the importance of relationships.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: I see this a lot with educators where we get so invested in our job and spend so much time working that it's to the detriment of our families. This is another one of those dots that I can carry back. My dissertation was actually I talked about deep teacher reflection and what it looks like for that dialectical level reflection, which is just deep reflection.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: I did a phenomenology, which is just a study of teachers. I wanted to see teachers that are highly, highly effective. Why? How? The phenomenon of that. And what I discovered is teachers that are very, very reflective and very effective. What I discovered in the study was that we are so close to losing them. That to be at the level that these teachers are, was to the detriment of something in their own lives.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: That was an a-ha moment of they are such great teachers, but either their health is suffering or their family is suffering. I'm so afraid we're going to lose them because we set them up for the same expectations of every other teacher and we can't lose them and they're working just nonstop. For those teachers, my feeling was our support of them looks a little bit different of helping them find a little bit more balanced so that they don't burn out, because the ones that burn out oftentimes are our most effective.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: That was just another dot to get me to where I am. That sense of belonging for so many teachers, making sure that we have tight connections at school. I do a lot of work with new teachers as well. One of the things we know are high attrition rates. We lose so many new teachers and the main reason that new teachers will leave is if they don't feel that sense of belonging, which loops up to level four, which is esteem.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: They also have to feel they're an important part of the community. All of these, as I'm listing them, listeners, you can hear how each of these got impacted during COVID. Diet, sleep, and exercise out the window for so many of us in order to feel safe, we need order predictability and fairness, and that's a lot of what we lost belonging.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: As we're in quarantine and just so removed from so many of our core relationships and then esteem. We all felt like the rug got pulled underneath us out from underneath us, and we feel like we're dropped back into first-year teacher mode again of trying to figure it out. It cycles through over and over again.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: If we get the first four levels, solid levels, five and six of Maslow, our self-actualization and transcendence. That's where the good stuff is. The reminder that it's really hard to get to those levels if the first four aren't solid. The first book that I wrote on this take time for you was all about just plugging in different strategies at each level.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: Knowing that different strategies work for different people, but there's some generalized categories of things that we can consider. The approach being, if we can commit to checking in with ourselves, which is first of all, a radical act for so many educators that check in with everyone else all day long and then their families, and then it's 11:30 at night. Then they check in with ourselves and they're too tired to do anything.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: Let's check in with ourselves throughout the day, using Maslow's hierarchy, asking ourselves some reflection questions and figuring out if we don't feel like our level one needs are being met, let's stop and do something, which can be as simple as filling up our water bottle. Stopping to eat lunch. Those small pieces actually add up to feeling better.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: I'm convinced, gosh, if we can get the adults feeling stable at the levels of Maslow, think of the gifts that that does for students, because if we are operating from a place of feeling truly self-actualized and transcendent of the gift that it is for our students, where we can create entire schools and communities where everyone is solid and that sense of collective efficacy.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: Of course it ebbs and flows, but if I'm feeling a little bit low, but you're feeling good in a different area, how we can support each other? We're not meant to do this in isolation. There's pieces that yes, we have the individual responsibility for, but when we actually approach this from a place of that collective efficacy, it just blows up into something incredible.

Nathan Lang-Raad: Tina that was the best definition of self-care I have ever heard. Thank you for that. It was so comprehensive and I think it's so much of it resonated with me because I think many of us need some structure to help us connect to all of the things you were mentioning. I think as educators, we're so focused on the goal of getting things done.

Nathan Lang-Raad: I know for me personally, my default is to push through when I have a sense maybe something's off. I'm like, "Oh, ignore it, push through. We're going to get through." The moments where I've said, "You know what, I'm going to go take a five minute break and go get a drink of water, or go take a five minute walk outside." I'm able to come to a better place.

Nathan Lang-Raad: I think what happens for me is realizing that I'm actually able to give my best when I stop and have these moments for I'm taking care of what I need to take care of. Check in with myself as you'd said, and as opposed to plowing through and trying to squeeze every second out of the day towards productivity activity.

Nathan Lang-Raad: I feel like it's a mindset shift, but you also have made it easy for me because you have created a structure for myself. I can ensure that I am checking in with myself as much as I can.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: Good. It's the idea of remember when we used to fly on airplanes, we've all forgotten that. Yes. I know it's saturated now, but it is so true. It is the notion of securing our own oxygen mask before we assist others. What a difference that makes and I'm guilty of it too. There's that quote of like, "Teach most what you need to learn." I approach all of this.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: Not that I have it all figured out, I've made giant strides, but oh my gosh, this is an ongoing journey for sure. I just give the example of knowing sleep is a big one for me. Sleep is this elusive thing these days. Anxiety for me, shows up in an inability to sleep. I know for a fact like if I go multiple nights without getting a good night's sleep, I'm a bear to be around.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: I should pull my husband in here too, to vouch for this. I think, gosh, what that tiny little thing, what a difference it makes. Our tempers, we have a short fuse. We just interact with people in a different way. As we're in a profession of interacting with people all the time, colleagues, families, students, we have to be so careful of that.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: Me putting myself to bed is actually a gift for my students tomorrow and getting a glass of water to help with my headache and help me feel better. Exactly as you said, allowing myself to take a five, it's always stunning to me what five minutes can do. Just five minute walk.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: We all have five minutes, but it feels like, "Oh, I don't have time and I am a to-do list person. I put things on my to-do list that I've already done so I can cross it off." If I actually get up and go for a walk, I feel better. I'm just a different person to be around. It's not a profession of isolation. We need each other and emotions are so contagious.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: Once we can get control of our emotions and think about what the person that we are presenting to our students and our colleagues, all of it, just what a difference that makes.

Nathan Lang-Raad: You're so right. Thank you for all those brilliant reminders. I feel like we need those reminders and I especially love how you made those connections to Maslow and as educators, we all understand that. It's nice for you to be able to unpack self-care through that lens. It makes a lot more sense.

Nathan Lang-Raad: Well, I think it's time for some lightning run fun. We'll continue to learn more about you and your work. Are you ready for this?

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: I am.

Nathan Lang-Raad: If you were stranded on a desert Island, which three books would you have with you and why?

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: It's so funny that's your first question. I am a voracious reader. I was an English major as an English teacher, I just can't get enough. This is the world's hardest question for me, because I feel like I'm leaving friends behind. I'm just going to go with my gut. I always have to take The Catcher in the Rye, that is my favorite all time book.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: That was the first book in high school classic book that we had to read that I actually liked. I reread that book about once a year and I get something different from it every time, so Catcher in the Rye. The second one would be David Sedaris. I'd have a hard time choosing which one. He just makes me laugh out loud. I think I'd probably have to choose, he has his most recent is The Best of, so it's his short stories over the years and essay collections.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: I'd probably choose The Best of. Then the third book would have to be, I think Bird by Bird, by Anne Lamott. It's a book on writing, but it's actually a book on life that I refer to over and over again. As a writer, I get stuck a lot. The advice in her beautiful book is advice that I go back to again and again. If you ask me tomorrow, I probably have three different books, but those are the first three that come to mind.

Nathan Lang-Raad: Well, now I'm going to have to revisit my book list and add your recommendations to the list now. Thank you for that. The next question is interesting because the expert in self-care, this is will definitely resonate with you. How do you recharge?

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: Lots of ways. Sleep is a big one. My recent discovery has been reconnecting with movement and walking and exercise. When COVID first hit, we were quarantined my husband and I took crazy long walks. I think we've walked around the world. That was the only thing we could do is we just kept taking walks.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: My mother coined this term, which I love on a phone call early on during COVID. I asked what she was doing. She said she'd just gotten home from an attitude adjustment walk. I loved everything about that. We started calling them AAW's. Anytime I'm feeling off or just angsty call it an AAW. It's now language in our family, I'll just turn to my husband. I'm like, "I'm taking an AAW."

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: Walking, walking, walking, walking. What I know research-wise is what it does is it gets me outside into nature, the sunshine, the vitamin D, the movement. There's a gazillion things. Personal-wise, it's exactly kind of what we just said, that five minutes, just a break away from technology, outside.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: I love when I am able to start my day with a walk that just changes everything. Especially now that we all spend so much time behind the computer and the screen. I would say my number one thing is just going for a walk.

Nathan Lang-Raad: I love it. It does so much good for the mind and body. My husband and I here at our house we call them time-outs. [crosstalk 00:22:30] I'm going to go put myself in time out. I hear that. Next question. We're going to go deep here. What is the biggest challenge in education?

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: There's so many challenges. The one that I feel like my head is in the most right now is around attrition and retention, particularly of new teachers. I'm scared to death of what's going to happen on the other side of all of this. We're not doing a great job of making the profession very attractive for new teachers.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: We're going to have this mass Exodus of even pre-pandemic, baby boomers in retirement age, and we're losing so many. It keeps me up at night of thinking about, "We don't have enough teachers to fill the positions. How are we going to make this an attractive profession again for the next generation? How do we build this back up?" Then once we have them, how do we keep them?

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: We know rates pre pandemic were terrible. We're still losing between 40% and 50% within the first seven years. There's pockets of different places where those numbers are even higher. It's just become an almost impossible job. How are we going to really think about changing that? One of the things that I think we can do is by emphasizing this notion of professional wellness, taking care of the adults.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: For a long time, I'm guilty of saying it too, "Teachers give 110%. Do whatever it takes." I'm now at this place where I'm like, "I'm not so sure that's how we're burning everyone out." It's not to say to lessen expectations for students, not at all. How can we approach this in a slightly different way that really honors the person, just as much as the work that they are doing.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: The research tells us very clearly that the most direct correlation to student achievement is the teacher in the classroom. I think we've missed that. We've just work, work, work, work, work, and the reality is there's a person there. How do we really honor that person. I think we're going to have to make some big changes there.

Nathan Lang-Raad: Yeah. It's huge. What subject did you love in school?

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: English. English, English. Absolutely. Always been a voracious reader and writer. English language arts was hands down my favorite subject all the way through. I was an English major. In fact, I had no intention of becoming a teacher. I went to the University of Iowa renowned program for writing, which was fantastic.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: I was in a major and went all the way through my undergrad. I got to about the last semester, and I thought, "Gosh, what am I going to do for a job?" I thought, "Well, let me just include my secondary English teaching certificate onto this is I just kind of thought, "I'm at least going to have that." Then fell in love with it.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: Absolutely fell in love with teaching. The funny part of that is I never got pressured to become an educator, but when I decided to pursue that, everyone that knows me, it was like, "Well, finally, you figured it out." You used to teach your stuffed animals. You've been a mentor.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: You taught tennis lessons. I'm drawn to teaching, but I never made that connection. I just wanted to be a New York Times bestselling author and apparently they don't just hand that to you once you get your English degree.

Nathan Lang-Raad: Very cool. Who is your favorite teacher and why?

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: English teachers, I had a lot. My sixth grade English teacher, Mrs. Gorman. She was a part-time teacher and a part-time writer and that blew my mind. That's when I thought, she wrote novels, and she wrote novels for middle school students. She wrote Chelsey and the Green-Haired Kid. I will never forget it.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: Her first book came out and I got a copy and she signed it and I remember reading it. I just fell in love with it. I thought, "Oh my gosh, she's writing and she's teaching." It was incredible. In high school. Mrs. Spencer, my English teacher absolutely was a life-changer as well of just believing in my writing and then a couple of college professors.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: Dr. Marshall, was my English educator professor. I had my methods course with him and he was phenomenal. What I loved about him is we bought his book for class and he felt so guilty about us having to pay for it that in little tiny Ziploc bags, he gave us the royalty back that he got for the selling of the books.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: It was like a $1.75 or something, which was incredible. I've been so blessed to have. That's just tip of the iceberg. So many incredible teachers, but those in terms of K-12, it was always English teachers that told me that I was a good writer. That changed everything.

Nathan Lang-Raad: Fantastic. What did you want to be when you were growing up?

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: A writer? If I'm being honest and I'll be very honest, so when I was a very, very young child, my parents will tell you that I wanted to be a Dallas Cowboys cheerleader. I don't really know where I got this from, but if you were to ask me when I was little. With all of that is so funny now.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: That's so not me, but no. When I really remember choosing it was always, "I wanted to be a writer. I wanted to be a writer. I wanted to be a writer."

Nathan Lang-Raad: Fantastic. What a great story. Who had the biggest impact on who you have become?

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: My parents. I'm really, really blessed with an incredible family and super supportive parents. Like I just said, I wanted to be a writer, which is not necessarily going to be the paycheck. It was the real creative endeavor and they believed in it and they never, ever once pushed me to do anything else.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: That just from belief and notion of you can do anything you want. Every maneuver that I've made and every pivot in my career, they are my number one fans. To this day, they are still, they attend every free webinar that I do. They comment on every Facebook post that I have in my group.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: They listened to every podcast episode that I do. They are just my number one fan still to this day. Good, bad. Even I've been married for almost 15 years. To this day, the first person, people that I want call good news or bad news is still my parents. That connection is incredible. I feel so lucky.

Nathan Lang-Raad: What a wonderful gift. What's the most positive change that you've noticed in education?

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: I would say the band-aid getting ripped off around professional wellness and self-care. I think it's the silver lining. It's the optimist in me. I've been talking about self-care for a few years. A few years before. COVID right. When we didn't even know the word coronavirus or COVID. Some people were interested, they were still getting confused on that.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: It was a different definition of self-care. "We don't have time to talk about self-care Tina, we have to talk about student achievement and how long it took me knocking down so many doors of saying, "These are not separate. We can't talk about self-care separate from student achievement."

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: I think just this year, I would say in the last calendar year, that connection is being made. We're seeing that there is nothing selfish about taking care of ourselves. I think the whole world saw it, but then in particular, in education and recognizing all the things that we've talked about that it's not separate.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: It's not to the detriment of students in any way that in fact it makes us, gosh, better educators for our students. I think we're starting to see that and it's so exciting to me. So exciting.

Nathan Lang-Raad: Agreed. What's the worst advice you've ever received?

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: That's such a good one. This is a convoluted... There's the notion that if you love what you do, you'll never have to work a day in your life. While I appreciate the sentiment of that, I lately have been thinking, "Oh, I love what I do. I've never worked so hard in my life."

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: I just think that there's a misnomer there of that. Yes. I absolutely love what I do. It's the same thing when I was in the classroom. I loved it. I absolutely loved it. I chose that. I loved it, but oh my gosh, it's such hard work. It feels insulting.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: Almost feels too strong of a word, but I can't think of another word that just because you love what you do doesn't mean that you're not working your tail off. I think that's probably the worst advice.

Nathan Lang-Raad: Interesting. Then on the flip side, what's the best advice you've ever received?

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: There's two quick ones that come to mind. Speaking of parents, so my dad's advice, my entire life growing up was always, "Get a good night's sleep. Get a good night's sleep. Get a good night's sleep. You have a big test tomorrow, get a good night's sleep. You're worried about something, get a good night's sleep. You can't do you have a big decision to make? Get a good night's sleep."

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: Getting a good night's sleep is a huge one. The other one would come from Dr. Robert Marzano, who told me "Never miss the opportunity to use the restroom." In all seriousness, in a one-on-one conversation I had with him where I asked him like, "What's great advice that you could give me at this juncture in my career?"

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: He sat and thought for a minute. Then he very seriously said, "Never miss the opportunity to use the restroom." I can't tell you how many times I've been grateful for that.

Nathan Lang-Raad: You made it through the lightning round. This was fantastic. All during the lightning run-

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: It was so fun.

Nathan Lang-Raad: I saw your furry friend in the background who is adorable and I see his tail.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: If you hear a strange noise, it's Harry chewing the bone, I apologize. I tried to grab it from him and he was not having it.

Nathan Lang-Raad: I don't think our listeners heard it, but I think if they did, it'd be fine. I think everyone kind of knows this point that we're have our pets in our meetings with us. I've been there.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: Such as home life. Good. That's Harry.

Nathan Lang-Raad: Tina, this has been such a pleasure and honor to have you on the show. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to join us. I have learned so much from you already.

Tina H. Boogren, PhD: My true most sincere pleasure. Thank you.